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>Entrevista a Jorge Galindo, autor de ´La urna rota´

"Podemos ocupa un hueco que existía hace mucho tiempo"

Fernando de Haro | 268 comentarios valoración: 3  33 votos
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El barómetro del CIS ha consolidado a Podemos, que se convierte en la segunda fuerza política, siguiendo muy de cerca al Partido Popular y desplazando el segundo puesto que tradicionalmente era del PSOE. Hablamos con Jorge Galindo, que es investigador en Suiza, y que ha coordinado un libro muy interesante, titulado “La urna rota”, donde hace una radiografía del sistema político español con mucha frescura y que es un libro colectivo, de autores que en realidad tienen una insultante juventud. Insultante porque va aparejada a la inteligencia. Es un libro de los que merece la pena leer.

En vuestro libro hacéis un análisis del sistema político español, del sistema de partidos, un sistema en el que se premia a determinada gente, es difícil que haya renovación, pero hemos visto que Podemos ha surgido prácticamente de la nada y según las encuestas del CIS ya está en segunda posición. ¿Esto a qué se debe? ¿Fundamentalmente al enfado de los españoles?

De hecho, lo que a la mayoría de sociólogos y politólogos nos llamaba la atención no ha sido tanto el surgimiento de Podemos sino que algo así no hubiera surgido antes. Porque la demanda estaba claro, en tanto que los partidos en España tradicionalmente son organizaciones bastante jerárquicas, cerradas, la renovación en los partidos es difícil y lenta. Lo vemos cada vez que hay un problema dentro de los partidos, cuando hay una derrota, lo que cuesta, dentro del PP, del PSOE, incluso de IU o UPyD, renovar a las elites, a los cuatros altos y a las cúpulas. Entonces, si la sociedad demanda un cambio y el cambio no se produce en los partidos que existen, por lógica tiene que producirse fuera de los que existen, en un partido nuevo. Lo sorprendente es que después de tantos años de crisis, tantos años de desgaste, tanto por la gestión económica como por las cuestiones de corrupción, algo como Podemos no hubiese surgido antes. De todas maneras, resumir que Podemos surge por el enfado ciudadano es quizás simplificar.

¿Por qué surge entonces, y por qué se convierte en la segunda fuerza?

Probablemente, Podemos surge por una combinación entre un enfado relacionado con la corrupción y relacionado también con la situación económica, pero cuando hablamos de enfado relacionado con la situación económica, es importante subrayar que el votante de Podemos no es necesariamente el perdedor absoluto de la crisis. Cuando uno mira los datos de quién ha salido perdiendo sobre todo en esta crisis, vemos que no ha sido la clase media y que no ha sido la clase alta, por supuesto, sino que ha sido sobre todo la clase baja, la gente más pobre, con menos recursos. Esa gente no está votando masivamente a Podemos. Podemos tiene un voto con un perfil un poquito más escorado hacia la clase media que hacia cualquier otra. Es un votante que está más bien penalizando la pérdida de expectativas, lo que esperaba que fuese su vida –porque nosotros hablamos de un votante joven, sobre todo, en el caso de Podemos–, lo que esperaba hacer en un futuro y cómo eso parece que eso ya no es posible. Eso se une a la situación de corrupción y al enfado, y da como resultado la búsqueda de opciones nuevas, que en este caso se resumen en Podemos.

Entonces es la expectativa frustrada de la clase media, ¿expectativa económica o expectativa también de participación social?

Yo creo que sobre todo expectativa económica, y es de participación social y política en cuanto que se considera que los líderes deberían por los menos ayudar a que las cosas mejoren económicamente. Sin embargo, no diría que en la base de Podemos está ni mucho menos la reclamación de una democracia más participativa, no me parece que sea la parte más importante que Podemos. De hecho, Podemos mismo, que nació con dos almas, una más asamblearia, más activista, y otra más cercana a la Complutense, a un movimiento desde arriba, ya parece que se está decidiendo por esa segunda alma. Es decir, mensaje claro, simplista, dirigido a los medios de comunicación y a ganar unas elecciones, como ellos mismos admiten. O sea, muy vertical. Así que me parece que la participación social no es el motivo per se que está moviendo a Podemos.

Según este razonamiento, tendríamos que darle la razón a los estrategas del Partido Popular, que dicen: este año hemos bajado las retenciones del IRPF, este año vamos a crecer al 2,5%, por tanto toda esa frustración de las expectativas se va a disolver porque la economía va a mejorar y entonces el efecto Podemos se va a minimizar. ¿Compartes ese análisis?

El problema es que no es tan sencillo. No es que con que tengamos una expectativa de crecimiento del 2,5% ya está, estos seis años y medio de crisis desaparecen. La previsión de paro según la Comisión para España es del 22,3% para este año, si no recuerdo mal. Tenemos unos niveles de precariedad muy elevados, que son los mismos que antes de la crisis pero que ahora se ven agrandados y agravados por el hecho de que el paro es más alto, y por el hecho también de que la desigualdad se ha incrementado. A todo eso el PP no está siendo capaz de dar ningún tipo de respuesta. Por supuesto, es de esperar que el hecho de que la economía vaya a ir mejor vaya a frenar la caída del PP, pero solo eso, frenar; no les va, ni mucho menos, creo yo, a colocar en la posición en la que estaban hace un par de años.

El PP no reacciona adecuadamente y en el PSOE están sin creerse lo que está pasando y sin una propuesta clara, porque parece que una parte importante del voto de Podemos es de la abstención, pero también una parte es voto del PSOE. Y ante esto el PSOE no sabe hacia dónde ir.

Sin duda alguna, el objetivo de Podemos es coronar ellos lo llaman la centralidad del cabreo, pero en realidad, cuando uno mira el perfil de sus votantes, es la centralidad de la izquierda. Se están posicionando. No me refiero tanto a dónde les posicionan todos los electores sino dónde se posicionan sus propios electores cuando a alguien que dice que va a votar a Podemos el CIS le pregunta: de 1 a 10, uno es extrema izquierda y diez extrema derecha, ¿tú dónde te pones? Si ves el perfil de votante de Podemos, se está moviendo, se está colocando en el centro de la izquierda, no en la extrema izquierda, aunque después la gente en general cuando le preguntan por Podemos la media te sale que es un 2,5%, pero si ves a los votantes, son un tipo de votante ideal o históricamente ideal del PSOE. Efectivamente el PSOE ante este ataque, la reacción de momento no parece que esté siendo muy efectiva, por varias razones. Primero, porque no parece que esté siendo capaz de aprovechar una ventaja que para mí es una ventaja comparativa que ellos no creo que se den cuenta de que tienen, y es que la gente, las clases populares, la gente con menos recursos, en España sigue votando más al PSOE que a cualquier otra fuerza. Si tú eres un votante que tiene pocos recursos económicos, que vienes de una familia con pocos recursos, y miras atrás, a la historia, y a ti te interesa redistribución por tu situación económica, y tú ves que hay siempre dos opciones, PP-PSOE, quien ha redistribuido, aunque se puede poner mucho en cuestión el Estado del Bienestar que montó el PSOE en muchos sentidos, en comparación…

El problema es que Zapatero lo hizo insostenible.

Bueno, yo creo que el problema del Estado de Bienestar en España viene de muy atrás. Creo que precisamente uno de los problemas del PSOE ahora es que no parece darse cuenta de que podría ser el partido que hiciese una propuesta de reforma del Estado de Bienestar hablando de desigualdad, hablando de igualdad de oportunidades, etc. No solo hace falta frescura, hace falta coherencia, y ahora mismo el PSOE parece que tiene ciertos problemas de coherencia interna, y hacen todo mucho más difícil. Esa sería la segunda dimensión.

Dices que ha sido un proceso magmático el de la constitución de Podemos pero el tema de participación social ha ido perdiendo terreno y ha ganado una de las almas de Podemos que es la que critica la política económica y la corrupción, un poco tipo Syriza. ¿Se ha encaminado Podemos al eurocomunismo? ¿Cómo definirías a Podemos en este momento?

Podemos es muy difícil de encuadrar en una estructura ideológica más allá del ámbito de la izquierda, que eso creo que es obvio. Más allá es muy difícil, porque ellos mismos se encargan de no hacerlo, pero es fundamental para entender su éxito. Podemos tenía dos opciones estratégicas genéricas. Podría haber intentado el camino difícil, que también yo creo que es el más interesante en el largo plazo, pero en el corto plazo entiendo que estratégicamente es más difícil, que es: vamos a intentar montar una propuesta alternativa de gobierno y de políticas públicas que nos vaya, no a sacar de la crisis ya porque eso es imposible, sino a mejorar nuestra situación ahora y en el futuro. Eso quiere decir poner de acuerdo las preferencias de mucha gente, que en principio son muy distintas. Eso es montar una coalición, eso es montar un partido de toda la vida. La alternativa es buscar la equivalencia de demandas: no vamos a ponernos de acuerdo en qué preferimos, solo vamos a ponernos de acuerdo en lo que está mal, en lo que hay que cambiar. Ellos han buscado por esta estrategia de buscar la equivalencia de demandas, y de construir una mayoría, como ellos dicen, que solo se basa en señalar que hay un problema.

Pero como propuesta eso es poco sostenible de cara al futuro.

Eso en el futuro, en principio, eso no es sostenible. Porque en algún momento, en cuanto un partido tiene responsabilidades de gobierno, empieza a notarse. De hecho, no es sostenible ni siquiera de aquí a mayo. Por eso Podemos se enfrenta de una manera tan de perfil, digámoslo así, a las elecciones autonómicas y municipales, porque son conscientes de que todo eso les va a obligar a posicionarse, en coaliciones posibles, en apoyar o no a ciertos gobiernos, incluso en toma de decisiones dentro de parlamentos autonómicos o consejos municipales… Eso no casa muy bien con su estrategia, que va sobre todo de cara a las generales. Por eso mismo, decir ahora algo de Podemos, más allá de que es un partido que está a la izquierda y no está a la derecha, resulta difícil, la verdad.

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